Some people are so miserable with their own selves.. they have to figure out a way to spread that misery around.

@MorningMia, I have a long-winded explanation, so please read as much or little of this as you please. I've reflected on this, and I believe that our SKs' desire to punish us comes from an unholy combination of deeply ingrained natural instincts to want to right a wrong, and their inability to distinguish right and wrong accurately.

Researchers at Yale did a study on babies to determine whether we are born with innate morality, born morally neutral, or predisposed to immorality. They made a number of conclusions including the fact that humans are born with a natural sense of morality, and in particular a sense of justice. But that sense of justice had a dark side: babies preferred "good" puppets who were helpful and similar to them. But they also wanted to PUNISH those who were "bad" or different. So sadly, they concluded that humans are vulnerable to racism, etc. because babies naturally disliked differences in others, even preferences for snacks. One lesson could be that we need to  be proactive about finding commonalities with others.

Anyway, they tested a number of scenarios at different ages, and the conclusion was the same: we are born to seek justice, and that often means harming those who wrong us. It is apparently very deeply ingrained in us. There was a 60 minutes report on this about a dozen years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRvVFW85IcU

I read another article which argued that revenge-seeking is evolutionary advantageous because you want to signal to your environment that if anyone puts a cost onto you, you're going to make sure they pay a price, which makes it less likely that people will try to harm you. Again, it adds to the argument that seeking punishment is deeply ingrained.

To be honest, the reason I did a deep dive on this issue is not to understand SS better, but to understand my own reactions to SS better. I felt guilty for feeling resentful and for sometimes wishing SS to fail at something that I thought he didn't deserve because he cheated, etc. It felt so unkind to wish SS was deprived of something he wanted. I decided that it's a feeling that probably stems from a primordial instinct to prefer right from wrong, but that a person needn't and probably shouldn't act on all of these impulses. Just because something is natural doesn't make it right.

But that's how I understand SS's attacks on me. When you also have someone who could be personality disordered, and they are perceiving being wronged all of the time even when it's not true, you have someone constantly trying to punish you. To be on the receiving end of that feels very unsafe. I decided that I cannot be expected to respond kindly, sympathetically, etc. to SS if I feel unsafe. Maybe one day I can make peace with SS the way DH wants me to, but so long as I'm feeling unsafe, my inclination is going to be to protect myself. The best I can do for now is take stock of my own reactions and to make sure I don't treat anyone unjustly because of my own perceptions of injustice.

@Esmod, I think you're right and ultimately, I think all inherited traits come down to survival. I don't think that the Yale psychologists would disagree with you. But it's novel to posit cooperation and pro-social traits as aiding survival. In the past, philosophers like Hobbes and biologists like Dawkins presumed that survival went along without question with aggression and selfishness, and the good was just made up and artificial. So the idea that we are predisposed towards the "good" was an untested hypothesis that these researchers think they now have evidence for. It's just that when there is a notion of what is "good", you're also setting up terms of what makes something "bad" and that's when it gets dark.

I over-think things, and one result is that I can spin myself into a circle of justifications and reasons. But boundaries have to be black and white to some extent. 'I don't care if you don't agree. I'm telling you that I'm not going to accept that behavior." period. 

I don't regard BioHo's attempts to shove me into a mold as punishment. I consider it countless failed attempts to manipulate me using the skids as leverage. 

As for the skids? Some of the things they did were due to:
• testing boundaries, as kids often do;
• trying to stay on 'Ho's good side by making me out to be the bad guy. If they admitted that they actually liked me, there would have been hell to pay.

No one can punish me. They can only try to manipulate or guilt me into doing what they want, which I find ridiculous and laughable. 

@Morningmia, Lol this: "So, to summarize, our skids are like untrained monkeys while we are, well, the trained monkeys. J/K." Funny enough, that sums it up. 

@Aniki, that's true, let's not forget triangulation by the BM. I'm not sure how much she plays a role in my case, but I'm pretty sure she does because I've seen her try to triangulate dh and SS, dh and me and others. I know one instance in which BM told SS how bad her sister thought SS was, which is so s***ty. It was during a time when BM was fighting with her sister, so she said that in order to get SS on her side. But it became much bigger than that. Ever since, SS has been brutally hostile even calling her a "slut". OMG! That's his aunt, for heaven's sake. I don't think they're ever spending a holiday together anymore. In any case, it goes back, in my mind, to feeling wronged and wanting to punish the wrongdoer. Like Morningmia said, kind of like throwing gasoline on fire.

I think it's my lack of security in myself that makes me easily swayable. But two weeks ago when SS came for the surprise visit, I offered a solution that I thought would work for me. If SS comes to visit without warning, dh and SS should go out, and not come over here. DH tried to do the whole dance trying to erode my stance by questioning me and gaslighting me. But I just said point blank, "Are you going to honor my request or not?" At first he said 'no' because he was mad and then softened his position. But he was kind of taken aback because I'm usually so amenable to his persuasion.

 

MorningMia, what we did worked for us. We were basically an unyielding wall. It's not a solution for everyone.

I don't like Rags' advice to make the SKID's life hell.  It smacks to me of game-playing plus it would be pretty obvious to everyone that that is what you're doing.  Plus I was bullied as a child and this feels very much like bullying.   I prefer my own solution that I now refuse to be in SD30's company since her abuse of me in 2022.  She can come here - I won't ban my steps from being in what is DH's home as well as mine - but I will go elsewhere for the duration.  

Kes wrote:

I don't like Rags' advice to make the SKID's life hell.  It smacks to me of game-playing plus it would be pretty obvious to everyone that that is what you're doing.  Plus I was bullied as a child and this feels very much like bullying.   I prefer my own solution that I now refuse to be in SD30's company since her abuse of me in 2022.  She can come here - I won't ban my steps from being in what is DH's home as well as mine - but I will go elsewhere for the duration.  

This is the thing.  I haven't really anywhere to go when she is here.  My partner is happy for me to suffer and not support me when I tell him how awkward she makes me feel by excluding me in conversations and not being in the same room as me when she is here.  He is also to blame I feel as the support he is not giving me and just not talking about it and carrying on as normal is killing me. Honestly he is a.huge coward. I'm worried I'm going to burst in to an irrational state and just leave.

Might just go and park my car up somewhere tonight for a few hours until it's bed time so I can come home and go to bed, seeing as she is here all weekend!

Aniki-Moderator wrote:

LifeIsTough wrote:

Kes wrote:

I don't like Rags' advice to make the SKID's life hell.  It smacks to me of game-playing plus it would be pretty obvious to everyone that that is what you're doing.  Plus I was bullied as a child and this feels very much like bullying.   I prefer my own solution that I now refuse to be in SD30's company since her abuse of me in 2022.  She can come here - I won't ban my steps from being in what is DH's home as well as mine - but I will go elsewhere for the duration.  

This is the thing. I haven't really anywhere to go when she is here. My partner is happy for me to suffer and not support me when I tell him how awkward she makes me feel by excluding me in conversations and not being in the same room as me when she is here. He is also to blame I feel as the support he is not giving me and just not talking about it and carrying on as normal is killing me. Honestly he is a.huge coward. I'm worried I'm going to burst in to an irrational state and just leave.

Might just go and park my car up somewhere tonight for a few hours until it's bed time so I can come home and go to bed, seeing as she is here all weekend!

LifeIsTough, I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this and that your partner is being such a jerk. I wish we were close by and I could offer you a few hours or a place to stay for the night. 

Thank you.  I wish you were too, since we are all experiencing step hell in some way or another :-)

@lifeistough,unfortunately, I identify with your situation all too well. For various reasons, my dh did not/does not back me up, but it's gotten so much better in the last year or two. First of all, I think you should make sure that even if no one else in the situation does, you take care of you - recognize that your feelings as worthy and valid, and that you deserve to be treated well. Secondly, what I've learned is that it's never about the Skids themselves, but about how the partner manages the situation. If DH had shut down SS's attempts to bully me from the very get-go, both SS and I would have been better off both separately and in our relationship.

For a long time, and still now, I was relying on trying to change hearts and minds by making my case to dh in small ways when I could. I was hoping that if he could understand me, he would change. But that was never going to work. So long as I just emoted and went along with everything, the easiest thing for dh to do was to keep doing the same thing. But now, I'm taking action. I'm being more assertive about putting down boundaries. I have been pleasantly surprised that even when dh doesn't necessarily understand or agree with me, he will comply. I think it helps that we've been to marriage counseling several times now, and both counselors were like 'what is wrong with your wife's requests?' It's hard to figure out, but in dh's mind, it's a zero-sum game between SS and me. One of us wins and gets his way in everything and one of us loses and gets nothing. I think part of that dynamic has to do with the fact that early on, SS would always put that out there to DH that it was either him or me, but never both. If I walked into the room, SS would either leave or refuse to interact with either of us. Behind my back, SS was telling DH how much he hated me and wanted to get rid of me. So though DH did so reluctantly, he thought he felt he had to chose between me and SS, and except for in the most extreme cases, his child always won out. It has to do with his guilt, societal tropes about the evil step mom, psychological assumptions about children always being innocent and the pressures to protect the child at all costs. I think that DH has learned that accommodating my needs did not mean that he was betraying his child. In fact, it's an overall good to protect me, and it models how SS should treat his wife in the future, and how to respect people in general. You don't do any favors to a child when you give them the message, 'when you feel frustrated or angry, it's okay to take it out on someone else. You don't have to cope with it in a healthy way.' That does no favors to SS's future wife, friends, colleagues, etc.

This is a complex topic to address. I think my self-righteous and judgemental SD's (26&28) punish because it gives them a sense of power and control. They learned from BM who is the queen of attempted manipulative and punishing behavior, not only towards DH and I, but that is her way of being in the world in general.

SD's feel justified in their punishments, especially towards me. They seem to be feeling somewhat guilty on being so cruel towards DH.
Although, being nicer to him and nasty to me is likely a form of triangulation/manipulation rather than true reform or understanding of themselves. 

Now that they are adults OSD has taken over the role of queen Diabla on behalf of BM with YSD falling not far behind. 

I have also read about how babies prefer people that are similar to themselves, not only in appearance but also in language. Babies show preference towards people that speak their own language without an accent. It's very interesting to understand. This preference doesn't stop after baby-hood ends either. 

IMO it requires a higher level social intelligence to overcome these bias'. That is what separates us from the monkeys. We can use higher consciousness to understand that being different doesn't signal a threat. 

BM and SD's are primitive thinkers. 

I am learning to notice my own feelings and emotional reactions (without judgement) to how the SD's are. This helps to de-escalate my own internal reactions to them. There is no need to internalize, invest emotionally or take it personally in how uncomfortable and weird it is to deal with them. They created and continue to maintain toxic, negative interactions  and that is on them, not me. I recognize and release. 

LifeIsTough, I saw your response to what I had said and then the boundaries you placed on your DH after having a heart to heart with your mom. This stuff is really hard...however you are already taking the steps and you will get to a sunny happy spot if you do what's right for you. Adopt incredible hobbies, get immersed in a world of your own and forget the abusive SKID. Let your DH handle her completely. I have to admit things were really rough when they were dependent on us but soon your SKID will be a young adult and it the frequency of interaction will be less and less, possibly even none. Protect your space, time and money. If they don't bother those things then it's not your issue. If you can get to that distilled principle you will be happy again. Took me a long time to get there but I am there and I can tell you it's peaceful and happy. Keep up the good work!