I have this with my older siblings. They continue to treat me like I'm 10 years old and cannot (or refuse to) fathom why I've distanced myself from them. It took me many years to decide it was enough and they're my blood relatives. While none of the skids have ever made any such demands, I was more lenient with their bad behavior because they were young (8-15 yo). If any of them tried to 'negotiate" with me, I'd simply say "okay", take a YUGE step back, and treat them like ickle coworkers: polite, but distant and impersonal.

"Then a little list would be bulleted out on a piece of paper about what I needed to change this could range from anything like making sure not to use certain language, changing my "vibe", an agreement to monitor my social media, provide additional funding - you name it. I'd sit there dumbfounded thinking that if I ever did that to my parents they would immediately leave the Resturant and here I am sitting for the umpteenth time with people I do NOT like and who do not like me who created the estrangement and are now trying to negotiate a "new deal" with the underlying threat that if I don't comply to the one-sided agreement they will continue the space."

This absolutely made my blood boil!  If any relative, step or non step tried to do this to me it would signal the end of the relationship as it is very close to coercive control, which is a crime here in the UK.  

 

Last edited by Kes (4/17/2026 5:46 am)

ImperfectlyPerfect wrote:

Aniki-Moderator wrote:

I have this with my older siblings. They continue to treat me like I'm 10 years old and cannot (or refuse to) fathom why I've distanced myself from them. It took me many years to decide it was enough and they're my blood relatives. While none of the skids have ever made any such demands, I was more lenient with their bad behavior because they were young (8-15 yo). If any of them tried to 'negotiate" with me, I'd simply say "okay", take a YUGE step back, and treat them like ickle coworkers: polite, but distant and impersonal.

Aniki you're very balanced in your approach and perspective- I am sad that you had to disengage your older siblings but sometimes it's just not worth the investment even if it robs you of the dream of having a solid relationship with blood relatives. Similiarly, I have this with a sibling. I had to ask myself- If I am always investing in the relationship and they are ALWAYS investing in their narrative, can we actually have a relationship? The answer is no. Every time there's a fight I am 100% to blame- I go back and reflect on where I went wrong and come to the table. Sibling doubles down and fights for the narrative. It's sad and there is no ability to build anything if it's a one sided relationship. 

Re: suggestion to treat like an icky co-worker if SKIDs try to negotiate- EXACTLY. That's a fabulous analogy. I feel that way. I look at them funny now- so much entitlement to think that I would be willing to accept the scraps of attention they threw at me and THEN take on the next set of conditional bullets of change? Are you kidding me? I really can't believe they think anyone in their right mind would take the bait. maybe they believed I was so low in self esteem that I would do anything just to back in the fold? Or maybe and more likely to do not see anyone else's perspective and view themselves as prized possessions that I am lucky to be in the presence of. No matter what their "art of the deal" didn''t work, I am uninterested in any of it. 

ImperfectlyPerfect, I honestly believe my sibling relationships gave me that balanced approach. I was 45 when Mr  Aniki and I got (back) together and still trying to make things work with my siblings. I spent so many years fighting to fit in, be noticed, be worthy. The reality is, my siblings are not worthy. They refuse to realize that I'm 61 and successful; not 10 and learning who I am. For whatever reason, when I hit 60, I hit DONE. I'm happy, successful, and love who I am. They destroyed the love I once had for them and now there is only indifference.

"Can we actually have a relationship?" No. A relationship is a balance of give and take, not take, Take, TAKE.

I'm with Kes about my blood boiling over the lists and demands. The audacity! Why didn't they just have one bulleted point: "Don't be you." 

While SD here tried to manipulate her father/us with "I'm not speaking to you" for two years, I was the one who chose another 7 of no contact for good measure (after she acted an a$$ in our home). There were no bulleted lists, requests, or demands. It was "just" SD having a temper tantrum that her father had remarried and would not be eternally devoted to her mother -- a puppet. She wrote very similar words in a letter to him that magically arrived on our first anniversary (DH hid it from me and waited a month to tell me about it--he was very disturbed by the letter and the intent regarding delivery.).

In our case, the skids simply behaved badly in our home--lots of passive aggressive behavior that was for a while easy for them to deny when confronted about it. It was really underhanded, nasty, and cruel. Thankfully, there were not frequent visits because of the geographical distance and me insisting that DH go to visit them on their turf alone...without me. 

And I agree with you and ESMOD: Estrangement is the best thing with toxic people. 

In the beginning, I wanted to have a good relationship with the skids. I wanted them to like me. 
Then I just wanted things to be civil.
Then I just wanted to be treated with some modicum of respect.
Then I wanted to prove to them that we are happy without them in our lives: It's their loss; not mine. 
Then I stopped caring altogether. 
Now I'm good. 

MorningMia wrote:

I'm with Kes about my blood boiling over the lists and demands. The audacity! Why didn't they just have one bulleted point: "Don't be you." 

While SD here tried to manipulate her father/us with "I'm not speaking to you" for two years, I was the one who chose another 7 of no contact for good measure (after she acted an a$$ in our home). There were no bulleted lists, requests, or demands. It was "just" SD having a temper tantrum that her father had remarried and would not be eternally devoted to her mother -- a puppet. She wrote very similar words in a letter to him that magically arrived on our first anniversary (DH hid it from me and waited a month to tell me about it--he was very disturbed by the letter and the intent regarding delivery.).

In our case, the skids simply behaved badly in our home--lots of passive aggressive behavior that was for a while easy for them to deny when confronted about it. It was really underhanded, nasty, and cruel. Thankfully, there were not frequent visits because of the geographical distance and me insisting that DH go to visit them on their turf alone...without me. 

And I agree with you and ESMOD: Estrangement is the best thing with toxic people. 

In the beginning, I wanted to have a good relationship with the skids. I wanted them to like me. 
Then I just wanted things to be civil.
Then I just wanted to be treated with some modicum of respect.
Then I wanted to prove to them that we are happy without them in our lives: It's their loss; not mine. 
Then I stopped caring altogether. 
Now I'm good. 

Yuck...that underhanded nastiness we all know TOO WELL...it seeps into every corner, leaves every conversation with them heavy and makes you feel icky. The relationship temporal chart is the exact path I took I am with YOU on the "I stopped caring altogether." Sometimes resentment and past stuff comes back up but it's never a feeling of WOW I miss those SKIDS! Or passing down memory lane and remembering what great memories we made!? There weren't great memories it was always about them, sacrificed so much and I was always left holding the bill, holding the heavy emotional toll, holding the crazy consequence of their behavior - just seemed to be the container for it all. And when they discarded me like a piece of trash I actually found myself thinking "great! I am a piece of trash and nobody wants trash so I can't mess anything up anymore!" And then one day I started removing myself from that thinking and observe things (with the help of a therapist) and I began to realize I am not that piece of trash and in fact I am really valuable, worthy of love and now when I see them I think I am dealing with some pretty distorted thinking on their part along with some personality disorders. By the time that fateful dinner (which i paid for- no contribution whatseover from adult SKID and bride) and they were "coming back to the table" to negotiate this deal with me- I had enough self confidence, awarenwss and insight to realize I wanted NOTHING to do with that deal. NONE of it was worth what i went through and the icing on the cake was those conditions- I was literally laughing liek a hyena inside as I sat there thinking - WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK THIS WOULD BE OK??? The fact is I played some level / role in conditioning them to think they could treat me that way. But the jokes on THEM: There's never going to be a deal, never ever. 

I do everything in my power to keep them out of my world. 

Last edited by ImperfectlyPerfect (4/21/2026 1:41 pm)

MorningMia wrote:

ImperfectlyPerfect wrote:

MorningMia wrote:

I'm with Kes about my blood boiling over the lists and demands. The audacity! Why didn't they just have one bulleted point: "Don't be you." 

While SD here tried to manipulate her father/us with "I'm not speaking to you" for two years, I was the one who chose another 7 of no contact for good measure (after she acted an a$$ in our home). There were no bulleted lists, requests, or demands. It was "just" SD having a temper tantrum that her father had remarried and would not be eternally devoted to her mother -- a puppet. She wrote very similar words in a letter to him that magically arrived on our first anniversary (DH hid it from me and waited a month to tell me about it--he was very disturbed by the letter and the intent regarding delivery.).

In our case, the skids simply behaved badly in our home--lots of passive aggressive behavior that was for a while easy for them to deny when confronted about it. It was really underhanded, nasty, and cruel. Thankfully, there were not frequent visits because of the geographical distance and me insisting that DH go to visit them on their turf alone...without me. 

And I agree with you and ESMOD: Estrangement is the best thing with toxic people. 

In the beginning, I wanted to have a good relationship with the skids. I wanted them to like me. 
Then I just wanted things to be civil.
Then I just wanted to be treated with some modicum of respect.
Then I wanted to prove to them that we are happy without them in our lives: It's their loss; not mine. 
Then I stopped caring altogether. 
Now I'm good. 

Yuck...that underhanded nastiness we all know TOO WELL...it seeps into every corner, leaves every conversation with them heavy and makes you feel icky. The relationship temporal chart is the exact path I took I am with YOU on the "I stopped caring altogether." Sometimes resentment and past stuff comes back up but it's never a feeling of WOW I miss those SKIDS! Or passing down memory lane and remembering what great memories we made!? There weren't great memories it was always about them, sacrificed so much and I was always left holding the bill, holding the heavy emotional toll, holding the crazy consequence of their behavior - just seemed to be the container for it all. And when they discarded me like a piece of trash I actually found myself thinking "great! I am a piece of trash and nobody wants trash so I can't mess anything up anymore!" And then one day I started removing myself from that thinking and observe things (with the help of a therapist) and I began to realize I am not that piece of trash and in fact I am really valuable, worthy of love and now when I see them I think I am dealing with some pretty distorted thinking on their part along with some personality disorders. By the time that fateful dinner (which i paid for- no contribution whatseover from adult SKID and bride) and they were "coming back to the table" to negotiate this deal with me- I had enough self confidence, awarenwss and insight to realize I wanted NOTHING to do with that deal. NONE of it was worth what i went through and the icing on the cake was those conditions- I was literally laughing liek a hyena inside as I sat there thinking - WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK THIS WOULD BE OK??? The fact is I played some level / role in conditioning them to think they could treat me that way. But the jokes on THEM: There's never going to be a deal, never ever. 

I do everything in my power to keep them out of my world. 

I am so glad you are where you are!

You have to be a special brand of pathetic to want another person to feel like trash, like they don't count, like they don't "belong," like they shouldn't be there. I wonder how much of this is related to projection? I think so many of these toxic skids fear that they will be in that place. . . the discarded. Do they then project that onto us? Or maybe it's not projection. Maybe they are initially acting out of that fear or desperation about loss of control and working to turn the tables that don't even exist. Later, in so many cases, this seems to turn into vengeance. . . and that is when it gets so ugly.

I know SD greatly feared being forgotten or left behind (as did her mother). She expressed that when DH and I began dating. Her behavior was off-the-charts dramatic and simply did not match reality. No matter what DH (or I) did to assuage those fears, she held onto them--and I know (and knew) that was driven by her mother. It honestly felt like she was channeling BM (she has been used throughout her life as a channel for her mother's wishes, desires, fears, lashing out). It appeared to be primarily her mother who didn't want to be "abandoned" or be "in second place." Yet she had wanted to cheat, throw DH out of the house, get divorced, and run off with her boyfriend (not in that order). When things didn't work out for her, woops, DH had already moved on (I'll tell the story of his first GF after the divorce another time). 

So, their solution was to try to put me in "second place." When that didn't work, they tried to make me the abandoned one, the forgotten one . . .  the one to feel like trash. I remember saying back then to DH (because of BM's behavior), "Hey, this isn't sister-wives." The place they were coming from wasn't a place where reality lived. Like I've said before, they fed a self-fulfilling prophecy, as BM has been 99.99% cut of our lives for over 15 years and the skids are more like distant cousins to DH and like little flies buzzing in the background to me. 

(I don't want to discount any children's understandable fears when their parents divorce. But when the fears and reality consistently do not match and lashing out and punishing emerges as the way they deal with the situation--and when this continues into adulthood--they have chosen the results. When it takes that turn of vengeance, it becomes something else. And while I hold my adult skids responsible for their behavior, I also understand that they had very little chance of growing into kind, stable people under the thumb of BM. That is sad.)  





 

@morningmia I wrote you a very lengthy and thoughtful response and ...somehow it didn't save!!!?? Thank you for your support and this situation- yours and mine is just so backwards. I just got back from an experience where I sacrificed time, money, resources (i believe it to be the LAST obligation on my end for adult milestones)- traveled very far to do what was best for an adult SKID and what was given in return? Rude jerk behavior...old me would have wondered what I needed to do to change? New me realizes this was a waste of MY time. He didn't deserve it and it won't be happening again. Selfish selfish entitled brat, made me sad to think how many years I put up with this bad behavior and to see it on display once again confirmed how they do not deserve me.

 

Last edited by ImperfectlyPerfect (4/26/2026 9:26 am)

Tryingjusttrying wrote:

I've been late to the game on a lot of these threads. I've been so busy at work, very stressful. Just wanted to say that I am FINALLY getting it, and am putting into practice being attuned to my own needs and preferences. I don't owe my time and energy to anyone, especially anyone who would use and abuse them. My dh and I had a long-ish talk yesterday and he is coming around too. It took me identifying my needs and wishes, and standing by them. In the past, I wasn't even sure that I was entitled to focus on myself. But once I committed to looking out for myself, things fell into place.

@imperfectlyperfect, I think that there is a trend inspired by the psychologist and author of a viral book on emotionally immature parents, Lindsay Gibson, where people are choosing estrangement from dysfunctional parents (as a last resort). I had bought and started reading the book months ago, but didn't really love it. But I've been listening to her on youtube, and she is so insightful. Her and Brené Brown have been my guides to happiness. What you say reminds me of Gibson's thoughts. She says that happiness in a child is the freedom to follow your nose and to do whatever feels good in the moment. Any drag on that should be reconsidered. I'm not saying that people should revert to being children and live recklessly, but I do agree with her that as much as we can, we should avoid people and situations that limit and take away our levity and ability to be present to ourselves in the moment.

As Brown says, boundaries aren't walls, they're bridges that we shape which determine how people can connect with us. Boundaries are a must and we are all entitled to build them.

Fabulous insight @Tryingjusttrying- first I am glad you are focusing on yourself and the universe is rewarding you with "things falling into place" how lovely ! I am very happy for you.

Second, follow your nose - in order to do that you have to get back to YOU (as you mentioned). I became nose blind to the BS that was surrounding me- I believed that their actions, emotions, etc were directly tied to my parenting and I believed that for YEARS. I spent all my energy doing what was needed and 100% believing I was accountable for their misbehavior. What a sad thing to do until I started seeing them as adults doing adult things but not taking accountability as an adult. That's when I began to look back at when I was their age and where I was developmentally - it was leap years ahead of what was going on. And as the acting out became worse and worse I found myself realizing I am 50% accountable and solely responsible for my behavior and actions. Than I started to realize that I was still acting right and doing my share when I realized they lacked insight into themselves. Due to this lack of insight the SKIDs repeated the same patterns of behavior over and over and over again...I started to realize my actions had nothing to do with anything they were doing - I was just the one taking the blame for it. Wild.

Now I follow my nose after re-training myself to focus on me. I am not selfish I am simply not taking the SKIDs bad behavior and owning it. Regarding the estrangement as a last resort due to dysfunctional parents- I do not believe that most kids and SKIDs are using it as a last resort as if they have done any or even some of the hard work before cutting off. I think they do this as punishment and control for the most part and most parents feel disperate to reconnect and acquiesce to their demands. In my case it worked out for me because it gave me enough space to realize I didn't like what was going on and following my nose meant walking away from that toxic mess. It's been bliss ever since. 
 

Tryingjusttrying wrote:

Thanks, ImperfectlyPerfect.  I totally relate to you blaming yourself for any problems related to the skids. SS would attack me verbally or do something very disrespectful, and dh would get mad at me, and honestly, so would I. I would wonder what I could do to stop him from being so hateful and angry towards me. When we went to marriage counseling, one of the counselors asked why SS was so angry at me and whether SS was getting therapy. That was the right way to look at it! 

I remember when you posted about how you came home after a hard day and your dh and SKs were making demands. I think it was after that that they tried to distance themselves from you and at the same time, you were just fed up. When I see other people twisting themselves into knots for their skids who are entitled and ungrateful, it makes me angry. But it's hard to see that in one's own situation sometimes. 

I didn't fully think through how adult kids could use estrangement as a form of coercion. I agree with you that that can be a manipulative technique. But it was your chance to liberate yourself! Yay!

Something that Lindsay Gibson said that has helped me keep perspective is that an emotionally immature person is someone who feels entitled to other people's help in emotionally stabilizing themselves and propping up their ego. When you have to carry that responsibility for someone else in addition to your own, then it drags you down. I have to say that that was such a good insight into my own childhood with my parentifying parents. I couldn't follow my own nose because I was weighed down by having to focus on them, and carry their baggage. That trained me to do the same for SS who was very happy to make any problem he had my fault. I can't believe I accepted that for so long. 

But these days, dh has largely kept SS and me apart. In some ways, I feel bad about that and I never asked him to do that. I just let dh know that I couldn't accept how it was anymore. DH took it upon himself to keep us apart. I'm just going to go with that for now, enjoy the space, and see where it goes.

I love your insight @tryingjusttrying- the fact that you recognize a pattern that you were exposed to early childhood and see how it has applied in your life as an adult is incredible. I have also done that work and recognizing patterns- in my case my parents were WONDERFUL but I had a very emotionally dysregulated sister who blamed her problems and emotional instability on others- she externalized all blame and left very little room (likely none) to understand how she was accountable and it has led to a lack of insight in adulthood. As I began to recognize this pattern she ramped up the dysfunction to the point that I was accused of theft (as an adult) and abuse, she pulled all kinds of 3rd parties into the mix and frankly it was so crazy, bizarre and embarrassing that I had to learn to simply not care what others thought of me. Time has a way to speaking the truth and slowly some people realized it was delusional and still others believe these things about me but I've come to a freeing decision not to care.

Now fast forward to the SKIDs I repeated this pattern allowing really poor treatment for over a decade+ and when the blushing bride of SKID got into the picture and there was now 3 SKIDs and SKID-in-law doing this abusive crap and laying ALL problems on me including making up problems that never existed I finally realized this was all a big delusional lie that I didn't need to take part in. My DH also keeps me separate for the most part, he longs for when we were all one unit but I don't really see his perspective. He saw the one unit as loving, great and FUN. I saw the unit as dysfunctional, blaming and using me as a scapegoat for everything. It really served him well and took the heat off of him. It also served the SKIDs well because they could strong arm us into their demands. The only person it did not serve was me. And getting that break with estrangement as a tool for coercion really lifted this for me. I was in a funk wondering my worth and I suddenly got red hot boiling mad (I am not a person who gets mad easily in fact it's not really in my DNA) so...when I get mad it means survival in some sense and I usually am close to some sort of breakthrough. My anger served as a way to GET OUT of this cycle. I've been happy ever since with some triggers along the way but I truly feel free. :D